*spoilers all books* Dragon Haven, Enjoy it? Hate it?

[Nuytsia]

Hey that's weird, I was wondering what happened to Carrion too yesterday! I was reading the wiki about the fate of the serpents (as I don't have LST books) and was reminded of him!
Whoa Spit, that could fit and something I'd never even considered. I always wondered what Carrion knew that made him so cynical and sure of himself. Maybe nothing, I guess he could just think that from actual experience!

Thanks Farseer, now I have an image in my head of

Spoiler

Fitz and Fool groping, after one of their dreams

hehehe sorry couldn't resist

[joost]

IIRC, Carrion was a very large serpent, and Spit was a very small dragon. But it's been a while since I read LST.

[Nuytsia]

Yeah I think that is true! (the sizes).... although we don't know for sure if size is always going to match?
I am sure is some cases it did, cannot recall exactly but think some of the biggest dragons were also biggest serpents?

I can see at least the possibility of a large serpent becoming a smaller dragon, although the other way around would be a bit of a mystery! (seeing they don't eat in the cocoon)

As to whether Carrion actually died in LST - maybe he did? I did wonder that when I was wondering what happened to him. I know the green one died? (Tellur?) I wasn't sure about the white but I had a bit of a feeling it was possible... hmmmmm.

[Farseer]

I don't have the LST books with me and, of course, can't buy the Kindle versions as they're not available for Australians to purchase (though I have bought all of the Farseer, Tawny man and RWC Kindle books!!!)

[Farseer]

https://www.theplenty.net/wiki/index.php...ir_keepers

Looks great, joost!

re Maulkin/Mercor, I would think that this could be considered 'confirmed'? Admittedly not by words so much, that I remember, but definitely by actions a number of times throughout both DK and DH. The best example I can think of would be when the dragons were discussing Tarman when he refused to move any further up the river. Kalo recalled being Kelaro of Maulkin's Tangle, and turned to look at Mercor (golden as a dragon) as he spoke of Maulkin as being the great golden serpent...I would think that because Mercor acknowledged this, this would provide us with confirmation of his identity, in the same way we have confirmation that it was Sessurea's case that was the source of the wizardwood for Tarman's modifications?

It is not so much 'said' but 'clearly implied' (as opposed to just 'implied' eg that, at times, * Spoiler, sort of, for Farseer and Tawny Man *

Spoiler

Fool is female etc)

via the text? Or must it be 'said' to be added to the wiki without noting that it's unconfirmed? I know we've been confirming dragons and their keepers etc from the text but that's becasue the source of knowledge came from the list that is external to the text however this indirect confirmation of Mercor's identity does come from the text?

I suppose it must need to be or, at very least, it doesn't hurt to label it unconfirmed on the off-chance we're wrong? *searching through my pecksie page to make sure I haven't included 'clearly implied' things *

[Lord Punctual]

There's also Mercor's pattern to consider. He is described as having markings like a peacock's eyes on his wings and more faintly on his neck. Presumably, these are a remnant of the false eyes he had as a serpent. I believe that Sintara's narrative even explicitly states this in the earlier part of Dragon Keeper, when the Dragons are planning their quest and we are being introduced to the various dragons.

[Nuytsia]

Geee so close isn't it? I'd say that the text definitely implies that mercor was maulkin, but it's true that it is never actually stated in the same way Kelaro/Kelo or Sessurea/Tarman.
My personal opinion would be to definitely say it's indicated in text, but not confirmed.
Although the current wiki page for Maulkin says that he IS Mercor...... so.... either way!

I don't have the LST books with me and, of course, can't buy the Kindle versions as they're not available for Australians to purchase (though I have bought all of the Farseer, Tawny man and RWC Kindle books!!!)

Grrrrrr!!! I'm ranting too on that one.

[Mervi]

Yeah, I just added the Maulkin=Mercor bit to the wiki yesterday. I made a note that it's not confirmed in the text, but I'm sure I saw Robin confirming it somewhere (newsgroup, probably). I wish I could remember where it was!

[Nuytsia]

Dragon Haven Characters - my thoughts

Sintara - I really liked how she developed from DK to DH. She could have easily been a simplistic 'arrogant dragon gets her comeuppance (or doesn't)' but I found myself sympathising with her and it was actually quite touching when she flies at the end (i love how she sort of has to eat her words about heeby running too). It was nice that she mirrored Thymara in a lot of ways, but certainly not all. I was intrigued (and surprised) to see her join Mercor in knocking over Spit when he was about to vent his venom on Tarman. She obviously cares about the puny humans a bit more than she lets on - awwwww! And interesting to see her showing some leadership potential.... (having the foresight to consider that Spit's action may NOT be a good idea and doing something about it)

Thymara - I did find her a good POV character in some ways; she's likeable as a character, but in others I found it frustrating that we see so little of the other keepers due to her tendency to keep to her self (and go off in a sulk fairly regularly!) and not to get to know them. We don't know much about them because she doesn't! I feel like I really don't know most the keepers as individual characters (except for the few) so I kind of wonder why they are even there (in the novel). They don't really do much. Warken dies, but who really knew who he was anyway? It doesn't really have an impact - although Baliper's reaction was something. Maybe just a few other little incidents or insights would have been good.

Sylve - Found myself wondering along the same lines as someone (I think Thymara?) in the book (when Mercor breathes over her?) - does Mercor's influence simply lessen the effects of her own fears/insecurities or is it more of a direct influencing her to be more like him? (er I'm sure that's not how it was put in the books....) She's freaking amazing for a 12 year old at times! I mean when she organises everyone to float the dragons. and other things that escape me right now. How is she going to be when she's grown up! (watch out Malta!) I'm sure it's no coincedence that she's the keeper for Mercor (dragons' leader)

Mercor - awwwww! yay!

Tats - Geee way to get in my bad books. He started out so sweet but after the last couple conversations with Thymara he just needed a good slap! Not much else to say.....

Greft - ouch! I'm sure I mentioned this elsewhere, but the poor guy! That was HARSH. He fairly well revolted me in DK and part of DH but it was a nice touch to see how the aspiring leader was himself so easily lead by a few comments from Jess.

Jerd - was one of the people I felt I didn't really get to know on anything other than a superficial level, and I knew nothing really of her interaction with her dragon. The one time I felt we got to know her a bit was when Thymara was watching her and Greft 'together'. I almost felt those two were going to turn into more developed characters after that but then wooosh Robin pulls the rug out from under me. Heheh, love it!

Well that's it for starters.

Oh and there should have been more Grigsby!!!!

['thul]

These beings called 'thul rather like this series, just like they liked the previous series by Robin Hobb. They especially find such aspects as the elderling conversions fascinating. It is not often that they like books where beings are both mammals and reptiles, but with this series they like such, partially due to the fact that it is well written, and partially due to the fact that the various differences between reptiles and mammals are taken into account.

The fact that the more fully formed elderlings not only require food and drink like mammals do, but also require sun/warmth to thrive, is interesting. The main example of this is at the end of Dragon Haven, when Thymara gets sun on her wings and senses how it improves her condition. These beings can barely wait for the next book to get out, so that more can be learned about the development of elderlings. While these beings are somewhat impatient, they will much rather wait a few months extra and get a more superior story to read, than to get a story before it is at the quality level that most (if not all) Robin Hobb stories are at.

These beings found the endings to be quite fitting in both of the latest books. Dragon Keepers ended in a cliffhanger, where these beings at least wondered what would happen. Would the copper dragon (Relphda) have died and the other dragons smell the culprit? Or was it something else? 'thul were quite certain that it was the former, and were quite surprised when it was not. They thought that the dragon had been absorbed to some degree by the human Sedric, but they had not imagined the real result.

'thul has noticed the doubt around whether the white serpent "Carrion" and the dragon "Spit" are the same. These beings can verify that this is not the case.

As the pirates on the Motley gave an uneven cheer, the serpent rose once more to spray the other ship with venom. A lone archer, screaming with the pain of his scalds, let fly a single arrow. It struck the white serpent, just behind the angle of his jaw. The shaft plunged out of sight and the serpent screamed in agony. It whipped its head about wildly as if it sought to dislodge the arrow. In horror, Wintrow saw a sudden wound open on the serpent's neck. It ran blood and steaming white toxins. Its own venom was eating away at its flesh. Vivacia gave a cry of fury and horror.

As the above quote reveals, the white serpent Carrion died, even if it would have made a very interesting dragon.

These beings have a theory on the reason that while humans + dragons = elderlings = good, and dragons + humans = abominations = bad. They believe it is very much related to the arrogance of the dragon species. Dragons dislike humans, but do not usually mind elderlings, as the latter is closer to themselves both in appearance and in life span. The Abominations however, are a step away from dragons, rather than closer to dragons as the elderlings are. That is the reason they are seen as abominations, or so 'thul believes.